Tamp&Puff member-recommended eBay sellers →  bobus  •  great estate-pipes  •  Judd  •  irishlefty  •  knobby  •  pipestud  •  shiny pipes  •  secondhandsmoker

Missouri Prop C

Friendly and intelligent discussion about politics and other controversial topics takes place here. No rules yet. Enter at your own risk. You must request to join "controversy" user group to use this forum.

Re: Missouri Prop C

Postby daveinlax » Sat Aug 07, 2010 3:59 pm

SmokinFool wrote: It most certainly is possible to receive healthcare without insurace, without breaking your bank.

The government has done a great job of making insurance synonomous with healthcare, but it is only a "smoke and mirrors" trick. THEY ARE NOT THE SAME, and it is possible to get one without the other.

Perhaps a rudimentary turn and cough check up, but any time in a hospital will bankrupt a family fast. I just donated two, cigar samplers to a silent auction for a friend's charity benefit. He was a hard head who "worked for himself" and didn't think insurance was necessary. With any luck this day would raise enough to cover 3 hours in ICU but we all know his bill will never be paid. People just don't get it. It's like a big house payment a day. I am for a single payer system but I think there should be also a legally binding directive that people who don't want their families to participate so if you don't want to pay and you show up at the hospital clutching your chest yelling save me! save me! they don't have to treat you until you can arrange for a charity or get a 2nd mortgage to pay your bill. :ugeek:
User avatar
daveinlax
 
Posts: 363
Joined: Sat May 09, 2009 3:54 pm
Location: Wisconsin

Re: Missouri Prop C

Postby SmokinFool » Sat Aug 07, 2010 10:58 pm

Any public hospital is REQUIRED to treat a paitient, even if that patient has no way to pay. THAT'S THE LAW! Even many private hospitals have simliar policies.

I'm truly sorry for what you're friend is going through, but I'll bet there are ways to get financial help. There are orginizations whose sole purpose is to help people who have suffered financial loss do to health problems. Hell, start a fund right here on T&P! Just show some kind of proof that this situation exists, and I have no doubt that many members will make contributions. I know I will. Take it nationwide - I'll bet you could garner enough attention to get all the funds your friend needs.

THERE ARE WAYS! WE DO NOT NEED TO, NOR SHOULD WE RELY SOLELY ON THE GOVERNMENT! THAT'S HOW SUBJECTS, NOT CITIZENS ARE MADE.
Andy

If guns kill people then forks make people fat and pencils misspell words.
User avatar
SmokinFool
 
Posts: 2569
Joined: Mon Nov 30, 2009 5:53 am
Location: West Virginia

Re: Missouri Prop C

Postby highstump » Sat Aug 07, 2010 11:16 pm

DerikC wrote:Saying that we can "choose" not to have a car and therefor not have to buy car insurance is a little convenient I think. Almost everyone needs a car to either get wages for a living, or an education, or just groceries. In the same way choosing death is ridiculous to avoid paying for health insurance, so to is choosing to walk everywhere to avoid car insurance.


OK Derik, my wife and I have one car that we share. If every individual must have health insurance, this line of reasoning suggests that since we are two drivers with one car we should pay double the premium for auto insurance.
Jim

"Mechanical Engineers build weapons, Civil Engineers build targets."
User avatar
highstump
 
Posts: 1737
Joined: Sat Aug 22, 2009 11:09 pm
Location: Salem, Oregon

Re: Missouri Prop C

Postby ewlewis » Sun Aug 08, 2010 2:33 am

Dave,
You argument, while sad, is not completely relevant. Your friend chose not to purchase insurance, that is his irresponsible decision and is not good cause to force the rest of the county to purchase government insurance. Sure his life may now be wrecked, but he knew the risks he was taking by not purchasing insurance. I will say that I do desire reform to make insurance cheaper but not required. This can be done in many different ways.
It takes humility to enter into prayer, but it takes faith to come out.
www.ewlewis.blogspot.com
User avatar
ewlewis
 
Posts: 954
Joined: Sun Sep 20, 2009 6:20 pm
Location: Ohio, USA

Re: Missouri Prop C

Postby DerikC » Sun Aug 08, 2010 7:02 am

highstump wrote:
DerikC wrote:Saying that we can "choose" not to have a car and therefor not have to buy car insurance is a little convenient I think. Almost everyone needs a car to either get wages for a living, or an education, or just groceries. In the same way choosing death is ridiculous to avoid paying for health insurance, so to is choosing to walk everywhere to avoid car insurance.


OK Derik, my wife and I have one car that we share. If every individual must have health insurance, this line of reasoning suggests that since we are two drivers with one car we should pay double the premium for auto insurance.


That's not what the line of reasoning suggests, you both are covered. If only one of you were covered the cost of the insurance policy would be cheaper.

SmokinFool wrote:Derick, the problem is not that ways to help do not exist. Any citizen of this great country of ours can walk into just about any hosbital emergency room, and receive treatment, regardless of whethere they have insurance or not. In areas where this is not available, there surely is a free clinic nearby.

You feel that ways are needed to help people with their medical expenses? Then let's set up charities to help those in need. I will surely be one of the first to contribute! Oh, wait - such charities already exist, AND I DO ALREADY CONTRIBUTE!

All this talk about insurance being a necessity and a right is just downright bunk. I went without insurance for many years, and yet I always found a way to get medical attention when I needed it. I was by no means a wealthy man, (and I'm still not!). HEALTHCARE is not the problem. Yes, we in the U.S. do have the best HEALTHCARE system in the world. Now, INSURANCE is a different matter. It is not the same as healthcare. They are two completely different beasts. It most certainly is possible to receive healthcare without insurace, without breaking your bank.

The government has done a great job of making insurance synonomous with healthcare, but it is only a "smoke and mirrors" trick. THEY ARE NOT THE SAME, and it is possible to get one without the other.



Ok, a few points...

1) Access to treatment isn't my argument. I'm well aware that I can walk into an emergency room and be treated. What I have a problem with is the price tag. Dave has an incredibly valid point.

2) You talk about these charities as if they're more popular than starbucks. I've never heard of one, either here or where I used to live 2 1/2 hours west. Until they become as prevalent as hospitals you can't expect the 42 Million uninsured to rely on them.

3) http://www.photius.com/rankings/healthranks.html
We don't have the best healthcare...at least not in 2000


Today I went to a walk in clinic type thing. I was charged $75 dollars before I saw anyone. I waited for almost 3 hours, the doctor looked at me for no more than 90 seconds, prescribed anti-biotics and walked out. I'm not sure how much the medicine is going to cost, but the $75 alone is a pain to pay. That's about 11 hours of work, wasted.

I make about $660 a month, give or take $20

660, -$300 for rent, -50 for electric,- 40 for water, -45 for internet (something I need for school, not a luxury, it's actually required), -100 for groceries (a modest estimate), -40 for phone, takes me to a whopping $85 in the bank. Now subtract my bill for uninsured healthcare in this great country of mine and I have $10 to my name. Now, starting next month I'll be working less hours because of school, I'll have to tack on car insurance and a car payment, as well as have more costs because of two people living here. I don't have access to free healthcare. Period. I sure could use it though.
"Although it is generally known, I think it's about time to announce that I was born at a very early age." - Groucho Marx

Proud member of the Corncob Snob Society
User avatar
DerikC
 
Posts: 416
Joined: Fri Jul 24, 2009 1:43 pm

Re: Missouri Prop C

Postby highstump » Sun Aug 08, 2010 9:04 pm

"That's not what the line of reasoning suggests, you both are covered. If only one of you were covered the cost of the insurance policy would be cheaper."

That is correct. However the government is telling me I have to buy a product I may or may not want. I can choose to walk rather than drive and not have to buy auto insurance. As far as the health ins. issue goes basically if I'm breathing, I'm buying. That is no choice.
Jim

"Mechanical Engineers build weapons, Civil Engineers build targets."
User avatar
highstump
 
Posts: 1737
Joined: Sat Aug 22, 2009 11:09 pm
Location: Salem, Oregon

Re: Missouri Prop C

Postby DerikC » Sun Aug 08, 2010 9:12 pm

That line of reasoning suggests you refuse to pay taxes? If you're breathing, you're paying taxes too.
"Although it is generally known, I think it's about time to announce that I was born at a very early age." - Groucho Marx

Proud member of the Corncob Snob Society
User avatar
DerikC
 
Posts: 416
Joined: Fri Jul 24, 2009 1:43 pm

Re: Missouri Prop C

Postby dlgillen » Sun Aug 08, 2010 11:11 pm

I Love this thread.... :mrgreen: :twisted: :lol:
Dan
"A Classic Virginia Flake"
dlgillen
Plank Owner
Plank Owner
 
Posts: 233
Joined: Mon Apr 20, 2009 12:53 am
Location: Northern Virginia

Re: Missouri Prop C

Postby SmokinFool » Mon Aug 09, 2010 3:49 am

Derick, it sounds like you went to more of an "urgent care" type of place than a free clinic. I admit that some of these "free clinics" aren't completely free, but they should certainly be less than the $75 you paid. As for where they are, I'm sure I don't know, but I do know they exist. Did you do a search, either online or in the phone book? If you do so, you should get some hits.

When I was talking about charities, I meant what I said. They do exist. The ones I give to are local to me, and operate on my local level. However, I did a VERY QUICK google search for "medical expense charities" and got several hits. Here is but one:

http://www.needhelppayingbills.com/html ... ns_th.html

Perhaps one of these can be of assistance to you. Also, I have heard of some Colleges and Universities coming together as a group and buying insurance policies offering group rates to their students. Not sure if this is true or not, but I have heard of it.

Believe it or not, I want everyone to be able to get the healthcare they need. However I do not think it is fair that EVERYONE should be required to pay into a system that NOT everyone will use. Surely you can see my point.

I do wish you the best of luck with this, Derick. I honestly do. The fact that I don't feel that people who will not use the system should be compelled to give to it, does not mean that I don't have a heart. I assure you I do.
Andy

If guns kill people then forks make people fat and pencils misspell words.
User avatar
SmokinFool
 
Posts: 2569
Joined: Mon Nov 30, 2009 5:53 am
Location: West Virginia

Re: Missouri Prop C

Postby highstump » Thu Aug 19, 2010 9:46 pm

DerikC wrote:That line of reasoning suggests you refuse to pay taxes? If you're breathing, you're paying taxes too.


Only if I have an income. ;)

Derik, we will simply need to agree to disagree.
Jim

"Mechanical Engineers build weapons, Civil Engineers build targets."
User avatar
highstump
 
Posts: 1737
Joined: Sat Aug 22, 2009 11:09 pm
Location: Salem, Oregon

Re: Missouri Prop C

Postby acaciavet » Fri Aug 20, 2010 12:45 pm

Derrick my friend,I pay an accountant to get my tax bill as low as possible.I earn I keep it, son when you get out of College and are making it big you too will leave the dark side. Paying taxes is for chumps.
Once a Coastie always a Coastie
Chuck
User avatar
acaciavet
Plank Owner
Plank Owner
 
Posts: 4407
Joined: Sat Apr 25, 2009 8:05 pm
Location: The Shores of Lake Ontario,Sanborn NY.

Previous

Return to Master Debators

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest