My Inner Libertarian VS My Inner Pinko-Anarchist

[DocJude]

I've always loved my civil rights, enjoy my 2nd Amendment, always test as "Libertarian" on those on-line tests. However a while back I got a heavy dose of Marxism, Communism & Anarchism in school and some of it is really sticking with me. I wonder about Capitalism because I know how it's supposed to work but after the huge bail-out & with unemployment rising, the money wasn't put towards employing people but all kinds of other stuff, corporate jets & stuff. What we're seeing now is all of the horrible stuff that can happen under Capitalism. Some of my friends who are very conservative use the USSR as an example of Communism & how terrible it is but I don't really see that as a very good example of Communism, in fact if the State runs capitalism I think that's what it was & if the US starts running like a corporation instead of a Democratic Republic we're on the same road as them. Are we a "more perfect Union"? Is all this crap with rich capitalists from Wall Street to Beijing lobbying in Washington, is that "Justice"? Does it "insure domestic Tranquility or "promote the general Welfare"? I'm fairly sure all this crap isn't "securing the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity"....

I'm beginning to think that it's like a coin-toss....

[SmokinFool]

Hi Jim,

The problems that you cite are not necessarilly examples of capitalsim not working, it's actually an example of the Government meddling in things it ought not to, and not allowing capitalism to work. In true capitalism, the free market system creates competition among companies, which keeps costs down to the end users, and keeps a lid on corruption, to a certain extent (you can never fully be rid of corporate corruption).

What happened with the "bailout" is that the government was giving money mostly to companies that didn't really need it (the ones that would have failed without the "bailout" should have been allowed to fail). You find examples of companies taking "bailout" money and spending it on bonuses for top execs. Without the "bailout," a particular company may have spent what money it had on more constructive things.

I'm sure you've noticed by now that I have been putting the word "bailout" in quotes. That's because it didn't really bail us out of anything. And many, many companies who tightened their corporate belts and worked harder at making it work without a "bailout" were able to do just that. Take the auto industry for example. One of the few companies to NOT take any "bailout" money was Ford. And guess which auto company was among those who grew the fastest? You got it - Ford! Meanwhile GM took BOATLOADS of "bailout" money, and yet they had to get rid of many of their car lines, including Saturn (which, if GM had not started meddling in its affairs years ago, would have been extremely successful in this down economy), and yet GM is still struggling. Oh, it's doing better than it was (I would hope so, after all the money they took!), but it's still struggling.

Anyway, that's my take on it.

[DocJude]

Hi Jim,

The problems that you cite are not necessarilly examples of capitalsim not working, it's actually an example of the Government meddling in things it ought not to, and not allowing capitalism to work. In true capitalism, the free market system creates competition among companies, which keeps costs down to the end users, and keeps a lid on corruption, to a certain extent (you can never fully be rid of corporate corruption).

True. I read Atlas Shrugged and that prompted me to read about laissez faire capitalism & it seems that even though the media claims that's what's causing all the problems, the truth is we've never had that either. The market isn't ever allowed to regulate itself (read "Bail Out"). All those companies should have been allowed to go right the hell under and something else would have filled the "demand void".

[Legend]

Great thread you started Jim...I understand the feelings you outlined in the OP. I got a HEALTHY dose of Socialism/Communism in college. As I reflect back on that, those Instructors that leaned that way all came from wealthy, priviledged backgrounds. Funny how that works huh? I think you are both correct, Capitaism has never been truly given an opportunity to work in our country, the Gov't always interferes. All this being said I can't wait to get my Social Security check someday! (Hopefully.)

[bob9039]

What we're seeing now is all of the horrible stuff that can happen under Capitalism

Great thread.

I'm not an expert on any of this but I believe what we are seeing now is what happens under Marxism/socialism.

I think we need to hear what others around the world think about their form of Gov't. Do you feel your gov't is spending wisely? Is it working for you? Are you happy with the freedoms you have?

If you support your Gov't and way of life I respect that and hope you don't feel uneasy responding. I am very interested to see your point of view. I know this could be a heated debate but lets not let it be. I ask all to be very respectful of the opinions of others.

[ewlewis]

I have little time right now, but I will be getting into this tonight. Great Thread

[ERNEST1T]

Human nature.

If everyone is equal or provided for it takes all incentive away. I mean if the gov't is going to make sure i survive by taking from others then why bust my ass to provide for someone else when I can sit on the couch and have them take care of me.And still have my liberty and freedom.

Allthough I would not just sit on the couch, maybe give 80% instead of 110%.

i.e. I make 1 million ayr. if I make 1.25 mil a yr my taxes go up 30%. geuss what when I hit the milion mark it's vacation time.Just an example, but can see how this could effect produtivity?

Could be very wrong. Maybe the guy that runs the plant is just a greedy bastard and he won't shut down the plant and lay every one off for 6 months.Or you going to have the gov't mandate he can't shut down.

the rich are smart people or they wouldn't be rich.Part of thier job is to find the loop-hole.

[eric]

Was it capitalism that caused the problems you name or a departure from the principles of capitalism.

No offense to anyone involved in higher education, academics, etc but the universities and colleges aren't making people smarter any more, just indoctrinated. Its a closed loop that has corrupted the language, tossed out logic and reason, and ceased to encourage thinking for yourself.

One of my favorite examples comes from a cultural anthropology class I took some years back. The unwritten theme of the class was "civilization and white people bad - existing primitive cultures good." The instructor said stupid and illogical things each class (he was working on is doctorate by using hallucinogens in a South American jungle) but one that sticks out in my memory is the comment he made about one of the Hawaiian islands here called Niihau. This island is virtually off limits to anyone but native Hawaiians who are also members of the Robinson family. In other words, the inhabitants all belong to a very small, exclusive, and limited group of people and they go out of their way to prevent outside influences by keeping people out. This brilliant instructor of mine said "there's a lot of diversity there."

These days you have to be extremely "educated" to say something that stupid. Having morons like that as gatekeepers sets principled thinking people like me at a disadvantage because I had to not just regurgitate the spew, I had to figure out a way to do it where I could be factual and intellectually honest but still appear to be inside his loop. I called this instructor on his use of the term "diversity" in front of the class and asked him to explain how he defines diversity and how that could apply to such an exclusive group of people from the same race, culture, and family. Of course he couldn't and backpedaled but I had to keep these challenges to a minimum.

The fact of the matter is to be considered "learned" or whatever, you have to believe a certain way. Then you can be one of them. Anyone who doesn't believe that certain way must not of learned anything so can't be one of them. All anyone has to do to produce evidence they haven't learned anything and is not one of them is challenge the status quo of beliefs.

The professors or instructors that are pushing socialism on you probably wouldn't stand up to scrutiny in a debate with a third rate amateur libertarian or conservative blogger. They wouldn't be able to answer the tough questions, but they'll never have to because they only expose themselves to scrutiny by each other, not outsiders, because they're the smart ones and the outsiders aren't, and they know that because the outsiders don't believe the way they do and ask all those challenging questions.

I hope your intellectual honesty survives until you get your piece of paper.

[DocJude]

Human nature.

If everyone is equal or provided for it takes all incentive away. I mean if the gov't is going to make sure i survive by taking from others then why bust my ass to provide for someone else when I can sit on the couch and have them take care of me.And still have my liberty and freedom.

Allthough I would not just sit on the couch, maybe give 80% instead of 110%.

Well, if minimum wage didn't exist and instead we were all getting per hour "what we are worth", I figure you would work 30 rather than 40 hrs a week & still make more money overall.
Personally, I live a simple life & I like to teach my kids to live the same kind of life. If I can afford some obscure martial arts classes, a couple good books a month & feed my pipes, I'm good. If you want more, go & get it.

i.e. I make 1 million ayr. if I make 1.25 mil a yr my taxes go up 30%. geuss what when I hit the milion mark it's vacation time.Just an example, but can see how this could effect produtivity?

Could be very wrong. Maybe the guy that runs the plant is just a greedy bastard and he won't shut down the plant and lay every one off for 6 months.Or you going to have the gov't mandate he can't shut down.

the rich are smart people or they wouldn't be rich.Part of thier job is to find the loop-hole.

Well, I figure if the "Reserve Army of Labor" were also employed, people could reduce their work output doing things they may not really want to do in order to make extra "work-hour-credits" or whatever they would be called.
The more I study my beloved Libertarian politics, the more that I come to the conclusion that this was a philosophy that worked great before there were almost 7Bil people on the planet.

[DocJude]

....One of my favorite examples comes from a cultural anthropology class I took some years back. The unwritten theme of the class was "civilization and white people bad - existing primitive cultures good." The instructor said stupid and illogical things each class (he was working on is doctorate by using hallucinogens in a South American jungle) but one that sticks out in my memory is the comment he made about one of the Hawaiian islands here called Niihau. This island is virtually off limits to anyone but native Hawaiians who are also members of the Robinson family. In other words, the inhabitants all belong to a very small, exclusive, and limited group of people and they go out of their way to prevent outside influences by keeping people out. This brilliant instructor of mine said "there's a lot of diversity there."

These days you have to be extremely "educated" to say something that stupid. Having morons like that as gatekeepers sets principled thinking people like me at a disadvantage because I had to not just regurgitate the spew, I had to figure out a way to do it where I could be factual and intellectually honest but still appear to be inside his loop. I called this instructor on his use of the term "diversity" in front of the class and asked him to explain how he defines diversity and how that could apply to such an exclusive group of people from the same race, culture, and family. Of course he couldn't and backpedaled but I had to keep these challenges to a minimum...

Yeah, all that "cultural/ethical relativism" crap they teach is just that. Of course, the same people who say that "oh, we can't judge another culture" just love to turn around and judge the modern world & Western culture. Funny thing is, according to cultural relativism you can't judge a culture with values from another culture, a culture can only truly be deemed worthy by it's internal successes & failures, and I think that Western cultures have more than done that. Of course, there are always situations where you have to "bite the bullet" but I think we can iron out the wrinkles.

...The professors or instructors that are pushing socialism on you probably wouldn't stand up to scrutiny in a debate with a third rate amateur libertarian or conservative blogger. They wouldn't be able to answer the tough questions, but they'll never have to because they only expose themselves to scrutiny by each other, not outsiders, because they're the smart ones and the outsiders aren't, and they know that because the outsiders don't believe the way they do and ask all those challenging questions.

I hope your intellectual honesty survives until you get your piece of paper.

Oh, I'm finishing up my second major now, just one logic class away from my philosophy degree & my libertarian sensibilities have survived this long, I think they're pretty safe...