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bin laden announced killed

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Re: bin laden announced killed

Postby ChuckMac » Fri May 06, 2011 4:29 pm

HowlinWolf wrote:
ChuckMac wrote:It just disturbs me that some politician who sits behind a desk, has never served this country, won't even salute it's flag, runs around other nations apologizing for America gets credit for something he had nothing to do with when it comes right down to it getting done. So. Where the hell is "a victory for Obama"?


Bonus question:
the failed desert rescue mission. Who took the heat for that? Jimmy Carter or Pinky Lee? Carter. In your view - Was that heat justified, or not? Since your criterion is how much the president has "to do with when it comes right down to it getting done."

I don't feel Carter was at fault. How could he be? Did he gather the intel? Anyone not there can only go by what he's told and if he's told wrong what kind of decision is he gonna make? There's almost no way around it. Nothing is set in stone and it all changes damned fast at times. I was a ground pounder in Viet Nam. I saw first hand how things worked out sometimes and how fast a situation can go to hell. Everything falling into place the way you need it to and then a few hours later it all blows up in your face.

Corollary of the same point: if your point is that it's the CIC and the boots on the ground who deserve the credit, not Obama:
do you lay the responsibility for the failure of the desert rescue mission at the feet of the CIC and the boots on the ground, not Carter? I.e. the CIC and the boots on the ground own that failure, not Carter?

Right. Carter wasn't responsible for what ultimately happened. He wasn't there and he didn't gather the intel but the forces on the ground may not have been responsible for things going wrong either. I wasn't there. I don't know what happened.

:arrow: If what you really want to say is "I don't like Obama. I don't care what he does or does not do - I'm not going to like it."
then just say it.

The reasons you're using are painting you into a corner. Cut your losses - just say you can't stand the guy and leave it at that.


I didn't blame Kennedy for the bay of pigs. The Prez, whoever he is, isn't on the ground fighting or gathering intel. His eyes and ears aren't there. It's not his ass on the line. He isn't controlling anything. All he does is to say do it or don't do it based on what he's told. He deserves no credit if it goes well or blame if it goes badly in my opinion. He, whoever he is, is held accountable for making a good or bad decision but it is the people there on the ground who are responsible for how things go down. They deserve credit if it goes right and they get the blame if it goes wrong even if it is not their fault it went wrong.

BTW, as a matter of fact I don't like Obama. I can't stand the guy but I still have a brain capable of forming viable opinions although opinions are like arm pits. Everyone has them and they all stink.
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Re: bin laden announced killed

Postby Hermit » Fri May 06, 2011 6:10 pm

ChuckMac wrote:I didn't blame Kennedy for the bay of pigs. The Prez, whoever he is, isn't on the ground fighting or gathering intel. His eyes and ears aren't there. It's not his ass on the line. He isn't controlling anything. All he does is to say do it or don't do it based on what he's told. He deserves no credit if it goes well or blame if it goes badly in my opinion. He, whoever he is, is held accountable for making a good or bad decision but it is the people there on the ground who are responsible for how things go down. They deserve credit if it goes right and they get the blame if it goes wrong even if it is not their fault it went wrong.


I have to disagree with that. Kennedy promised air support to the rebels
and did not deliver. He left them hung out to dry and doomed the mission.
La Bahía de Cerdos could have been successful if Kennedy didn't waffle.
It was his order to give and he didn't do it. The fault was his.
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Re: bin laden announced killed

Postby ChuckMac » Fri May 06, 2011 6:33 pm

Hermit wrote:
ChuckMac wrote:I didn't blame Kennedy for the bay of pigs. The Prez, whoever he is, isn't on the ground fighting or gathering intel. His eyes and ears aren't there. It's not his ass on the line. He isn't controlling anything. All he does is to say do it or don't do it based on what he's told. He deserves no credit if it goes well or blame if it goes badly in my opinion. He, whoever he is, is held accountable for making a good or bad decision but it is the people there on the ground who are responsible for how things go down. They deserve credit if it goes right and they get the blame if it goes wrong even if it is not their fault it went wrong.


I have to disagree with that. Kennedy promised air support to the rebels
and did not deliver. He left them hung out to dry and doomed the mission.
La Bahía de Cerdos could have been successful if Kennedy didn't waffle.
It was his order to give and he didn't do it. The fault was his.


Was that Kennedy's decision or the military's or did the situation change forcing him to hang them out to dry if that's actually what happened? "Could have been successful" is pretty broad. Like I've said I wasn't there and I don't know the truth of the matter. It's easy to second guess after the fact. How can we know the truth of anything coming from D.C. or the spooks? Just like the current situation. Seems like every time I hear a new report it has changed. What is the truth? I don't think we will ever know.
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Re: bin laden announced killed

Postby gnossos » Fri May 06, 2011 6:38 pm

We don't really need to get into it, just think of it this way - if Obama can take no credit for killin OBL because all he did was make the order

then

uh

OBL can't really be credited with... you know...

I'm with Hermit, and if he and I are agreeing... that's a pretty good sign :P
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Re: bin laden announced killed

Postby brim325 » Fri May 06, 2011 7:12 pm

Dencappo wrote:
brim325 wrote:IMO, this is the one man on the planet that did not deserve a trial of any kind, fair or not , I'm sorry, but this was one EVIL Man. Good Riddance to Bib Laden. No offense meant guys, this is just the way I feel about it .

The way I see it, no criminal has ever lived who didn't deserve a fair trial. I understand why you say what you do and given the circumstances surrounding Bin Laden's death it may not have been possible to provide him with one, but I just cannot agree that he committed a crime so bad that he didn't deserve a fair trial.

I am not saying for a second that he shouldn't have been imprisoned for the rest of his life, or even that he didn't deserve the death penalty, but without a trial, who has the authority to decide his fate in good faith?

If he was killed in self defence then I accept it and so be it. But if it was cold blooded murder (exercising the death penalty without a trial) I cannot accept that as being the right thing to do, irrespective of the severity of his crimes.

I also find the style of some of the celebrating I've seen on the news to be a little inappropriate. This is my opinion and may offend some of you, but that is not my intent. I just find some of it distasteful. A man is dead; shot in the face alongside some of his family. In my opinion, the only thing that should be celebrated in such a way as I've seen on TV is a victory that tangibly brings us closer to peace, and not the seemingly bloodthirsty pleasure of mere retaliation.



Hi bud, You offend me in no way what so ever,You have the right to your opinion just as I, but as far as Bin Laden goes we disagree Totally, as I don't think the man, after what he done has any rights as a" human being" Period , I'm sorry but the man got just what he deserved , only thing i regret is it took to dam long to get it done.
Last edited by brim325 on Fri May 06, 2011 7:21 pm, edited 2 times in total.


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Re: bin laden announced killed

Postby ChuckMac » Fri May 06, 2011 7:13 pm

gnossos wrote:We don't really need to get into it, just think of it this way - if Obama can take no credit for killin OBL because all he did was make the order

then

uh

OBL can't really be credited with... you know...

I'm with Hermit, and if he and I are agreeing... that's a pretty good sign :P


Bin Laden admitted what he did. He happily claimed and took the credit. He also supplied the funds for many of the operations his hands were in. Obama didn't even do that much. WE did not give OBL credit. A slight difference there. But since the past is the past what's the use of hashing it over? We'll get no where. OBL is dead. Obama is still alive and still able to stir the stink. I'm moving on. I've got tobacco to think about before I can't get any more due to government meddling.
Last edited by ChuckMac on Fri May 06, 2011 7:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: bin laden announced killed

Postby brim325 » Fri May 06, 2011 7:18 pm

HowlinWolf wrote:
ChuckMac wrote:It just disturbs me that some politician who sits behind a desk, has never served this country, won't even salute it's flag, runs around other nations apologizing for America gets credit for something he had nothing to do with when it comes right down to it getting done. So. Where the hell is "a victory for Obama"?


Bonus question:
the failed desert rescue mission. Who took the heat for that? Jimmy Carter or Pinky Lee? Carter. In your view - Was that heat justified, or not? Since your criterion is how much the president has "to do with when it comes right down to it getting done."

Corollary of the same point: if your point is that it's the CIC and the boots on the ground who deserve the credit, not Obama:
do you lay the responsibility for the failure of the desert rescue mission at the feet of the CIC and the boots on the ground, not Carter? I.e. the CIC and the boots on the ground own that failure, not Carter?

:arrow: If what you really want to say is "I don't like Obama. I don't care what he does or does not do - I'm not going to like it."
then just say it.

The reasons you're using are painting you into a corner. Cut your losses - just say you can't stand the guy and leave it at that.




Hi Wolf, I mean no offense to you in any way bud, I don't know what Chuck will say , but I will come out & say I just plain cant stand Obama at all , Anyone that wont salute our flag can just plain @#$%^ as a man, & as far as president, the same feeling on that as well.
Last edited by brim325 on Fri May 06, 2011 7:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.


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Re: bin laden announced killed

Postby ChuckMac » Fri May 06, 2011 7:20 pm

I'm with you Clint. All the way.
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Re: bin laden announced killed

Postby brim325 » Fri May 06, 2011 7:23 pm

ChuckMac wrote:I'm with you Clint. All the way.


Thanks Chuck.


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Re: bin laden announced killed

Postby HowlinWolf » Fri May 06, 2011 7:55 pm

ChuckMac wrote:What is the truth? I don't think we will ever know.


That's one of the reasons I gave up on politics a while ago. Whether Democrat or Republican, and whether the source is the Oval Office, Congress, or pundits, what you're told is propaganda attempting to seduce your support and your vote.

The other reason is longer:
You can't do anything about how things are run. You can get as PO'd you want to about whatever happened, didn't happen, should have happened, or should not have happened and it's not going to make one god damned :oops: bit of difference.
You get to vote every 2 years and that's it. Like that makes a big dif.

Once they're in you'll find that the guys on your side won't do what they said they would, and that the guys on the other side won't, either - at least not as bad as you feared they would if given the chance.

In fact, I don't even know what the hell I'm doing on this thread at all, since this is how I feel about politics. :roll: :lol:
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Re: bin laden announced killed

Postby Bob » Fri May 06, 2011 7:56 pm

KevLa wrote: You stated that your cousin was killed "over there". Without wanting to cause you any offence or upset, do you mind if I enquire, over where?


Helmand province, Afghanistan.
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Re: bin laden announced killed

Postby ruraldean » Fri May 06, 2011 7:59 pm

I've stayed out of this one for a while to see where it went. I apologise to some for what follows, as my intention is not to offend.

It strikes me as fairly simple - the minute you shoot an unarmed man in the face in the name of freedom and justice you've handed victory to your opponent and a moral impetus for them to continue the fight.

It may be considered that OBL gave up his rights as a human being, but a human being is what he was, regardless of anyone's opinion. The scenes we've witnessed over here of people celebrating in the streets brings me to despair. When peace was declared in Europe in the 40's we celebrated that peace. We didn't celebrate death. When Hitler was declared dead nobody celebrated. His death was at his own hand, yet we still didn't celebrate.

When our own Ken Bigley was publicly beheaded our enemies celebrated. That single horrific characteristic confirmed that we were right to resist them. I find myself wondering if OBL was placed in a room with ten of those who celebrated this week, and a machete, whether he would have been similarly beheaded and his head driven round the streets. Sadly, I think he would.

Killing him may have saved months, maybe years of trials. It may have saved costs and been politically expedient. It may even have been necessary. But it should certainly never be celebrated with parties in the streets. And his murder, or assasination, or elimination or liquidation are a gift to those who feel the West is every bit as bad as the East and they will come back to demonstrate that violence will be met with violence, just as we have.

Feel free to have a pop. My shoulders are broad and I sincerely believe what I'm saying.
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Re: bin laden announced killed

Postby brim325 » Fri May 06, 2011 8:05 pm

ruraldean wrote:I've stayed out of this one for a while to see where it went. I apologise to some for what follows, as my intention is not to offend.

It strikes me as fairly simple - the minute you shoot an unarmed man in the face in the name of freedom and justice you've handed victory to your opponent and a moral impetus for them to continue the fight.

It may be considered that OBL gave up his rights as a human being, but a human being is what he was, regardless of anyone's opinion. The scenes we've witnessed over here of people celebrating in the streets brings me to despair. When peace was declared in Europe in the 40's we celebrated that peace. We didn't celebrate death. When Hitler was declared dead nobody celebrated. His death was at his own hand, yet we still didn't celebrate.

When our own Ken Bigley was publicly beheaded our enemies celebrated. That single horrific characteristic confirmed that we were right to resist them. I find myself wondering if OBL was placed in a room with ten of those who celebrated this week, and a machete, whether he would have been similarly beheaded and his head driven round the streets. Sadly, I think he would.

Killing him may have saved months, maybe years of trials. It may have saved costs and been politically expedient. It may even have been necessary. But it should certainly never be celebrated with parties in the streets. And his murder, or assasination, or elimination or liquidation are a gift to those who feel the West is every bit as bad as the East and they will come back to demonstrate that violence will be met with violence, just as we have.

Feel free to have a pop. My shoulders are broad and I sincerely believe what I'm saying.



Pop/? LOL No pop from me bud , I just disagree on bin Laden having any rights at all after what he done! I think I have said all I need to say on this one as I would probably just offend someone & I don't want that.


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Re: bin laden announced killed

Postby Hermit » Fri May 06, 2011 8:13 pm

Would it have been different if a Predator Drone
dropped a Hellfire missile on his ass?
I believe it all happened rather quickly
and probably in the dark. They didn't
know if he was wearing a suicide vest.

I also found the public celebrations in bad taste at best.
I "celebrated" in the privacy of my office with a quiet
fist-pump and the lighting of one of Fidel's finest.
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Re: bin laden announced killed

Postby ruraldean » Fri May 06, 2011 8:23 pm

Hermit wrote:Would it have been different if a Predator Drone
dropped a Hellfire missile on his ass?

Yes, because that would have indicated that reaching him with personnel was impossible and so was capture. Having reached him, a cold blooded killing is just that.

My main beef lies with the celebration.
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Re: bin laden announced killed

Postby Hermit » Fri May 06, 2011 8:25 pm

ruraldean wrote:Having reached him, a cold blooded killing is just that.



That assumes a lot.
We weren't there.
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Re: bin laden announced killed

Postby ruraldean » Fri May 06, 2011 9:52 pm

Hermit wrote:
ruraldean wrote:Having reached him, a cold blooded killing is just that.



That assumes a lot.
We weren't there.

In the first story released by the White House he used his wife as a human shield and she was killed as troops were getting to him. In the second story she ran for one of the troops and was shot and wounded in the leg, not fatally, and an unarmed OBL was taken out with headshots. Obama watched it in real time with Hilary Clinton and Chiefs of Staff as it was relayed to the States from cameras worn by the troops.

The understanding is, and it was reported here, that Obama issued a kill instruction before the attack. That indicates that capture wasn't an option.

Whether it's been reported correctly, or told to the world truthfully by the administration is beyond what we can currently know. However, the celebrations I've referred to are a matter of fact.
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Re: bin laden announced killed

Postby Hermit » Fri May 06, 2011 10:07 pm

The "new" version of the story is that there was no video.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/al-qaeda/8493391/Osama-bin-Laden-dead-Blackout-during-raid-on-bin-Laden-compound.html

The regime has released so many differing accounts
of the mission that it makes them look like fools.
http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?print=yes&id=43348
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Re: bin laden announced killed

Postby ruraldean » Fri May 06, 2011 10:14 pm

I suppose it'll be sometime before some "deep throat" leaks the real truth.
But you're right - changing stories don't inspire confidence. What we have seen its a whole load of photos of Obama and Clinton with military staff all watching something on a large screen and Hilary looks horrified. There were several pictures and they were certainly watching something they didn't want to see.

UPDATE*. Over here the BBC is relentlessly saying that Obama "Had Bin Laden killed", indicating further that that was the purpose of the mission. No one in the States is denying it.
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Re: bin laden announced killed

Postby brim325 » Fri May 06, 2011 11:49 pm

I just really don't get the sympathy for this man, I certainly hope it was a planned killing myself , the man deserved no less. I'm sorry if I sound heartless, but a man that's done what he has done has no heart huh? As far as celebrating , I'm still doing so, I'm not a young man anymore, or I would have been in the streets celebrating with all the others.


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