Tamp&Puff member-recommended eBay sellers →  bobus  •  great estate-pipes  •  Judd  •  irishlefty  •  knobby  •  pipestud  •  shiny pipes  •  secondhandsmoker

Austerity...can someone explain it to me?

Friendly and intelligent discussion about politics and other controversial topics takes place here. No rules yet. Enter at your own risk. You must request to join "controversy" user group to use this forum.

Austerity...can someone explain it to me?

Postby bearded1 » Sat Jun 16, 2012 1:43 pm

I have looked up the definition, but still feel I am only getting a rudimentary understanding of the subject as it relates to Greece. Can we shed some light on this?
-Paul
User avatar
bearded1
 
Posts: 2038
Joined: Thu Oct 29, 2009 2:32 am

Re: Austerity...can someone explain it to me?

Postby Dodger » Sat Jun 16, 2012 1:59 pm

bearded1 wrote:I have looked up the definition, but still feel I am only getting a rudimentary understanding of the subject as it relates to Greece. Can we shed some light on this?


What it boils down to is that Joe Public suffers because of the cock ups of the same politicians and bankers who say they are the only ones who know how to fix it.
Dodger
Supporting Member
Supporting Member
 
Posts: 6900
Joined: Thu Apr 12, 2012 9:31 am
Location: Bristol UK

Re: Austerity...can someone explain it to me?

Postby acaciavet » Sat Jun 16, 2012 2:03 pm

You see greece is kind of like the good old USA is populated by a lot of freecheesers.Freecheesers are those other then Policemen and firefighters and Military folks who rely on the Gubment for their daily bread.You get a whole bunch of non producers sucking on the Gubment tit and the taxpayer and after while there aint enough producers to take care of the free cheesers hense Austerity where Gubment has to cut back becuase their is not enough free cheese to give to these sloths.
Gubment produces nothing they just take form you and I.
1 Non Free cheesers Gubment folks I dont mind paying
A Police and any law enforcement folks like prision guards.
B Firemen
C Military

2 Free Cheese Jobs
anybody else

3 The Bastards that really piss me off
DMV workers
Toll Collectors
Politicians
School Boards.
Once a Coastie always a Coastie
Chuck
User avatar
acaciavet
Plank Owner
Plank Owner
 
Posts: 4972
Joined: Sat Apr 25, 2009 8:05 pm
Location: The Shores of Lake Ontario,Sanborn NY.

Re: Austerity...can someone explain it to me?

Postby PseudoNim » Sat Jun 16, 2012 2:06 pm

Greece is broke........ and is borrowing money from te EU / IMF, Euro's 130BN (thats right, BILLION) this money however, is not going to the Greek people wo desperately need it. Instead it's going o French and German banks to pay the interest on exhorbitant loans that Greece was strong armed into taking, "We give you the money, you give us something" Does this sound like the Mafia ? Well it is, onlyhere it's called the EU.

Now that Greece is broke and can nolonger service it's debt, there are certain nasty people who are calling Greeks "LazyTax avoiders" ...... (the following has ben lifted from another site but explains things rather well).............

that is the "popular" version. But in the words of the wise "Follow the money."
You will find that it was the French under Chirac who fiddled the books with loans from Goldman Sachs to "boost Greece" into the euro.
In exchange, France got trillions (literally) of Greek National Projects, such as the Port of Piraeus, Athens Airport (shared with Germany) the InterIslands Ferries, the super highways to Greece's far borders, etc, etc.
Sampras told Chirac And Sarkozy that Greece could NEVER repay and was told not to worry.
The Man - in the ECB at the time signing off these crazy loans was our old friend, the E U apparatchik - Papademos.
The same rape of Greece was repeated in all of the PIIGS. Massive overlending - in return for their national Title deeds.
The EU never got their direct taxation - so the whole Franco-German Ponzi Scheme ended up with what you see before you.
Were the Greek politicians corrupt?
Yes - but no more than those of Spain, Portugal, Ireland, Belgium, France, Italy and Germany.


Speaking as a rabid, bigoted, reactionary, xenophobic, swivel-eyed, racist, foaming-at-the-mouth Little Englander, this all comes as no surprise, and it gives me little satisfaction to say "we told you so".
Proud Member of the "Royal Society of Old Codgers and Coffin Dodgers" Mild restrained panic is the British way
PseudoNim
Plank Owner
Plank Owner
 
Posts: 120
Joined: Wed May 20, 2009 9:31 am
Location: Lancashire England

Re: Austerity...can someone explain it to me?

Postby KevLa » Sat Jun 16, 2012 2:28 pm

Mmmmm...free cheese :P
Kev-La :ugeek:__,~
"One being's junk is another's art." Motto of Pipes (Autobot warrior, from Transformers: Generation 1).
User avatar
KevLa
 
Posts: 8892
Joined: Sun Sep 05, 2010 7:45 am
Location: Twelve o' clock high.

Re: Austerity...can someone explain it to me?

Postby bearded1 » Sat Jun 16, 2012 4:44 pm

So, similar to what happened here in the US, banks and govt fucked things up at our expense, then bailed out the crooks...again, at our expense.

So now, one option would be to cut back all non-essential social programs towards a path of recovery and the people of Greece don't want this? I understand the frustration of being bent over once again without even the pleasure of a reach-around, but wouldnt this be a fairly short term discomfort for a potential long-term solution?

Wouldn't this serve to awaken the sleeping masses to a more fiscally responsible form of living?
Wouldn't it serve as a "reset" to govt spending? Almost a do-over, a chance to make different choices this time around?

I know, real pie in the sky ideals here.
-Paul
User avatar
bearded1
 
Posts: 2038
Joined: Thu Oct 29, 2009 2:32 am

Re: Austerity...can someone explain it to me?

Postby Dodger » Sat Jun 16, 2012 5:11 pm

In an ideal world it would happen.

In this one , more on the lines of what do you call 10000 politicians at the bottom of the Med ,a damn good start .
Dodger
Supporting Member
Supporting Member
 
Posts: 6900
Joined: Thu Apr 12, 2012 9:31 am
Location: Bristol UK

Re: Austerity...can someone explain it to me?

Postby Add » Sat Jun 16, 2012 9:09 pm

bearded1 wrote:, but wouldnt this be a fairly short term discomfort for a potential long-term solution?

Keynes wrote:The long run is a misleading guide to current affairs. In the long run we are all dead.

A little out of context, but I couldn't resist. ;)
Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing.
User avatar
Add
 
Posts: 673
Joined: Wed Jun 01, 2011 7:50 am

Re: Austerity...can someone explain it to me?

Postby PseudoNim » Sat Jun 16, 2012 10:56 pm

bearded1 wrote:So now, one option would be to cut back all non-essential social programs towards a path of recovery and the people of Greece don't want this?


That's just it, it's not just non-essential social programmes, but essental programmes and services including healthcare and pensions. Greeks are being asked to endure what no other people have been asked to endure during peacetime, the economy, now in a hopelessly downward spiral, created by the Troika, is now self fulfilling leaving 50% of Grecian youth unemployed. Greece is being systematically raped by Her so-called “Friends and Partners”, the EU.

To add insult to injury, Greece is being told that if they do not vote for 10 more years of pain, and remain in the Euro, then the sky will fall in, that a return to the Drachma is doom and oblivion, the people who are saying this have a vested interest in the continuation of the “Great Projekt”, end the Euro and snouts will be removed from troughs.

So lets have a little think about what might happen if Greece sticks two fingers up at the EU, first, they will remain in the EU, there is no political mechanism to legally throw them out. Second, they may be pushed or opt out of the Euro and return to the Drachma on a 1to1 bassis, this will go into freefall against other currencies including the Euro……. BUT……. The markets, scenting blood, and a possible break up of the EU, could well go for Spain, Italy or France as most of the debt, owed by Greece, is to French and German Banks. This in turn would cause the Euro to fall, possibly at an alarming rate, so the parity of Drachma against the Euro may go from an initial 50% devaluation to maybe 10 or 15% as the Euro implodes.

Now while all this good stuff is happening, Greece goes back to Brussels and demands access to the EFSF (European Financial Stability Fund) which it is entitled to. At the same time that Brussels is writing the rubber cheque, Greece goes to the IMF and requests help from them, reminding Madame “I’ve got an orange Tan”
Legard, that the IMF was setup to assist struggling Countries as opposed to struggling currencies and French and German banks.

It is at this point the nightmare scenario is brought home to the Europhiles, who are just waking up to the fact that Greece can tap into an incredible amount of minerals and energy in the Agean, which is possibly one of the reasons Mr Obamarama wanted Greece out of the Euro and possibly the EU, so that he, along with the Russians and Chinese, could be Greece’s new “Bestest Friends in the world ever” and keep away the nasty Turks who may want to spoil things.

In the meantime, Greece has control over her economy once again, prices are low, which allows foreign investment to come flooding in and Greece follows the path of Iceland (which was in the same situation until they told their creditors to bugger off) and see how well they are doing. And while this is going on, do you really think that Portugal, Ireland, Italy and Spain will be happy to carry on with their austerity measures which are strangling them ?

Should all this come to pass, England will suffer greatly also and a number of banks here will also go bust. But that is business, you make the wrong call and you pay the price. So, on Sunday, yes, the people of Greece could not only free themselves of the euro yoke, and that is what it is, they could, in time bring down the whole filthy corrupt edifice that is the EU.

MAY IT PLEASE GOD THAT THEY DO SO
Proud Member of the "Royal Society of Old Codgers and Coffin Dodgers" Mild restrained panic is the British way
PseudoNim
Plank Owner
Plank Owner
 
Posts: 120
Joined: Wed May 20, 2009 9:31 am
Location: Lancashire England

Re: Austerity...can someone explain it to me?

Postby bearded1 » Sat Jun 16, 2012 11:22 pm

PseudoNim wrote:
bearded1 wrote:So now, one option would be to cut back all non-essential social programs towards a path of recovery and the people of Greece don't want this?


That's just it, it's not just non-essential social programmes, but essental programmes and services including healthcare and pensions. Greeks are being asked to endure what no other people have been asked to endure during peacetime, the economy, now in a hopelessly downward spiral, created by the Troika, is now self fulfilling leaving 50% of Grecian youth unemployed. Greece is being systematically raped by Her so-called “Friends and Partners”, the EU.

To add insult to injury, Greece is being told that if they do not vote for 10 more years of pain, and remain in the Euro, then the sky will fall in, that a return to the Drachma is doom and oblivion, the people who are saying this have a vested interest in the continuation of the “Great Projekt”, end the Euro and snouts will be removed from troughs.

So lets have a little think about what might happen if Greece sticks two fingers up at the EU, first, they will remain in the EU, there is no political mechanism to legally throw them out. Second, they may be pushed or opt out of the Euro and return to the Drachma on a 1to1 bassis, this will go into freefall against other currencies including the Euro……. BUT……. The markets, scenting blood, and a possible break up of the EU, could well go for Spain, Italy or France as most of the debt, owed by Greece, is to French and German Banks. This in turn would cause the Euro to fall, possibly at an alarming rate, so the parity of Drachma against the Euro may go from an initial 50% devaluation to maybe 10 or 15% as the Euro implodes.

Now while all this good stuff is happening, Greece goes back to Brussels and demands access to the EFSF (European Financial Stability Fund) which it is entitled to. At the same time that Brussels is writing the rubber cheque, Greece goes to the IMF and requests help from them, reminding Madame “I’ve got an orange Tan”
Legard, that the IMF was setup to assist struggling Countries as opposed to struggling currencies and French and German banks.

It is at this point the nightmare scenario is brought home to the Europhiles, who are just waking up to the fact that Greece can tap into an incredible amount of minerals and energy in the Agean, which is possibly one of the reasons Mr Obamarama wanted Greece out of the Euro and possibly the EU, so that he, along with the Russians and Chinese, could be Greece’s new “Bestest Friends in the world ever” and keep away the nasty Turks who may want to spoil things.

In the meantime, Greece has control over her economy once again, prices are low, which allows foreign investment to come flooding in and Greece follows the path of Iceland (which was in the same situation until they told their creditors to bugger off) and see how well they are doing. And while this is going on, do you really think that Portugal, Ireland, Italy and Spain will be happy to carry on with their austerity measures which are strangling them ?

Should all this come to pass, England will suffer greatly also and a number of banks here will also go bust. But that is business, you make the wrong call and you pay the price. So, on Sunday, yes, the people of Greece could not only free themselves of the euro yoke, and that is what it is, they could, in time bring down the whole filthy corrupt edifice that is the EU.

MAY IT PLEASE GOD THAT THEY DO SO


Thank you so much for taking the time to write this! It sheds a lot of light on the subject for me. I hadn't realized this was pensions and healthcare as well. Also, the entire euro financial bit and being bullied by the EU is quite interesting to me. Hopefully Greece can pull themselves up out of this whole mess.
-Paul
User avatar
bearded1
 
Posts: 2038
Joined: Thu Oct 29, 2009 2:32 am

Re: Austerity...can someone explain it to me?

Postby PseudoNim » Sun Jun 17, 2012 12:08 am

You are welcome Paul, but I feel I must tell you, I am NOT an economist, these are simply my own conclusions of facts that I have read.

Sadly,what I am even more convinced of is that the Eurocrats in Brussels should beware, they are stirring up a Hornets nest which could end up in civil war. they should be afraid, they should be very afraid. For as Sir Winston Churchill said at the end of WW2

“Greeks do not fight like Heroes

HEROES FIGHT LIKE GREEKS”
Proud Member of the "Royal Society of Old Codgers and Coffin Dodgers" Mild restrained panic is the British way
PseudoNim
Plank Owner
Plank Owner
 
Posts: 120
Joined: Wed May 20, 2009 9:31 am
Location: Lancashire England

Re: Austerity...can someone explain it to me?

Postby Dodger » Sun Jun 17, 2012 1:35 am

PseudoNim wrote:
bearded1 wrote:So now, one option would be to cut back all non-essential social programs towards a path of recovery and the people of Greece don't want this?


That's just it, it's not just non-essential social programmes, but essental programmes and services including healthcare and pensions. Greeks are being asked to endure what no other people have been asked to endure during peacetime, the economy, now in a hopelessly downward spiral, created by the Troika, is now self fulfilling leaving 50% of Grecian youth unemployed. Greece is being systematically raped by Her so-called “Friends and Partners”, the EU.

To add insult to injury, Greece is being told that if they do not vote for 10 more years of pain, and remain in the Euro, then the sky will fall in, that a return to the Drachma is doom and oblivion, the people who are saying this have a vested interest in the continuation of the “Great Projekt”, end the Euro and snouts will be removed from troughs.

So lets have a little think about what might happen if Greece sticks two fingers up at the EU, first, they will remain in the EU, there is no political mechanism to legally throw them out. Second, they may be pushed or opt out of the Euro and return to the Drachma on a 1to1 bassis, this will go into freefall against other currencies including the Euro……. BUT……. The markets, scenting blood, and a possible break up of the EU, could well go for Spain, Italy or France as most of the debt, owed by Greece, is to French and German Banks. This in turn would cause the Euro to fall, possibly at an alarming rate, so the parity of Drachma against the Euro may go from an initial 50% devaluation to maybe 10 or 15% as the Euro implodes.

Now while all this good stuff is happening, Greece goes back to Brussels and demands access to the EFSF (European Financial Stability Fund) which it is entitled to. At the same time that Brussels is writing the rubber cheque, Greece goes to the IMF and requests help from them, reminding Madame “I’ve got an orange Tan”
Legard, that the IMF was setup to assist struggling Countries as opposed to struggling currencies and French and German banks.

It is at this point the nightmare scenario is brought home to the Europhiles, who are just waking up to the fact that Greece can tap into an incredible amount of minerals and energy in the Agean, which is possibly one of the reasons Mr Obamarama wanted Greece out of the Euro and possibly the EU, so that he, along with the Russians and Chinese, could be Greece’s new “Bestest Friends in the world ever” and keep away the nasty Turks who may want to spoil things.

In the meantime, Greece has control over her economy once again, prices are low, which allows foreign investment to come flooding in and Greece follows the path of Iceland (which was in the same situation until they told their creditors to bugger off) and see how well they are doing. And while this is going on, do you really think that Portugal, Ireland, Italy and Spain will be happy to carry on with their austerity measures which are strangling them ?

Should all this come to pass, England will suffer greatly also and a number of banks here will also go bust. But that is business, you make the wrong call and you pay the price. So, on Sunday, yes, the people of Greece could not only free themselves of the euro yoke, and that is what it is, they could, in time bring down the whole filthy corrupt edifice that is the EU.

MAY IT PLEASE GOD THAT THEY DO SO

This a very biased opinion .What is more worrying is that I agree with you.
Dodger
Supporting Member
Supporting Member
 
Posts: 6900
Joined: Thu Apr 12, 2012 9:31 am
Location: Bristol UK

Re: Austerity...can someone explain it to me?

Postby bearded1 » Sun Jun 17, 2012 1:54 pm

Dodger wrote:This a very biased opinion .What is more worrying is that I agree with you.


I just hope the people of Greece pull together and find a way toward recovery. I'm still too ignorant of the history and facts leading up to this to have a valid opinion, but it is very interesting to me and I will be watching the outcome.

It does make me think deeper thoughts on why this is happening around the world though. I think it's time for a pipe!
-Paul
User avatar
bearded1
 
Posts: 2038
Joined: Thu Oct 29, 2009 2:32 am

Re: Austerity...can someone explain it to me?

Postby Add » Sun Jun 17, 2012 3:27 pm

The situation in Greece is a Euro problem, but the deeper reasons are common to many countries.

A pipe is perfect for quiet contemplation of the tensions inherent in democratic capitalist economies.

Can we blame "corrupt politicians" in a democracy? The collective "we" chose them.
If income in a society is unevenly distributed isn't it rational (in a democracy) for the majority to vote to have some of it distributed to them? Ethical?
If a corporation can borrow money to improve its future through investment, surely a country can too. But when does that borrowing move from prudent, through optimistic and on to reckless? Who bears the consequence of that risk? Surely it has to be citizens with the franchise? Perhaps we should consider ourselves shareholders in our economy and be given tradable share certificates (and votes). No?
If a bank can be "too big to fail" then why not a society of real human families? Banks seem to face no moral hazard, yet a people do?
If a country borrows money to improve roads, healthcare, security and the education of its citizens. Is it right that a company that relies on this educated, well, safe society for employees and customers then moves money to prevent paying tax that the country needs to pay the debt incurred? Is this another case of the "tragedy of the commons"?
Is talk of "collapse" and "fall" appropriate, aren't "crumble" and "decline" more helpful terms?
Communism cracked over decades then rapidly fell apart. Is our version of capitalism crumbling or cracking? What does Economics 2.0 look like?
Did Iceland do the right thing? Can we even use Iceland as a helpful model?

I don't really know the answers to these questions. I'm not even sure I understand the questions. This needs deeper thought than I'm capable of providing. I wonder if we'll see a new Adam Smith, Keynes or Marx. If we do I bet he (or she) will be a pipe smoker.
Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing.
User avatar
Add
 
Posts: 673
Joined: Wed Jun 01, 2011 7:50 am

Re: Austerity...can someone explain it to me?

Postby Add » Sun Jun 17, 2012 9:56 pm

I once read a conspiracy theory suggesting that Greece was being used as a test case to see how far austerity can be pushed in a democracy before its people revolted. I don't believe this conspiracy theory.

However... today's Greek election results may mean that we'll find out anyway.
Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing.
User avatar
Add
 
Posts: 673
Joined: Wed Jun 01, 2011 7:50 am

Re: Austerity...can someone explain it to me?

Postby bearded1 » Sun Jun 17, 2012 10:15 pm

Add wrote:I once read a conspiracy theory suggesting that Greece was being used as a test case to see how far austerity can be pushed in a democracy before its people revolted. I don't believe this conspiracy theory.

However... today's Greek election results may mean that we'll find out anyway.


I am one who can get caught up in a good conspiracy theory...and I do believe this could happen, but your right, orchestrated or not, we will indeed get to watch and see how things unfold. I am a bit surprised at the outcome of the election based upon what we in the US have been shown by our media. I suppose this could be a case of having a very vocal minority.
-Paul
User avatar
bearded1
 
Posts: 2038
Joined: Thu Oct 29, 2009 2:32 am

Re: Austerity...can someone explain it to me?

Postby Add » Sun Jun 17, 2012 10:33 pm

bearded1 wrote:I suppose this could be a case of having a very vocal minority.

Yes, I think people in pain tend to get vocal.
I don't know how this will end (obviously!), but I'm optimistic.
Unsustainable growth of debt, unsustainable plundering of resources, increasing CO2 and (what appears to be) a decline in critical thinking skills. ...but greater leverage of positive solutions through technology. If humanity were a fight then somebody would have just proclaimed that we should "get ready to rumble!".
Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing.
User avatar
Add
 
Posts: 673
Joined: Wed Jun 01, 2011 7:50 am

Re: Austerity...can someone explain it to me?

Postby Slickheadhunter » Sun Jul 08, 2012 10:53 pm

The main problem (the core problem) is that the majority of people work for the state,or government. the wealth is produced from the private sector,and when that money no longer is enough to pay the people working for the government it collapses...period!

The people of the world have been duped into believing that we need as many social programs as we have,every single person working for the government produces ZERO,no products,no wealth.

What the governments of the world have done is hold producers as slaves to the rest of the world that does not produce!

Its not like the individual working for the government does nothing(some do,most dont) Most of them get up and put in an honest days work,but the problem is that at the end of the day there is nothing to show for that work that can be turned into a product,money,wealth.
Slickheadhunter
 
Posts: 818
Joined: Wed Apr 20, 2011 11:52 pm
Location: New Hampshire

Re: Austerity...can someone explain it to me?

Postby cakeanddottle » Sun Jul 08, 2012 11:07 pm

Slickheadhunter wrote:The main problem (the core problem) is that the majority of people work for the state,or government. the wealth is produced from the private sector,and when that money no longer is enough to pay the people working for the government it collapses...period!

The people of the world have been duped into believing that we need as many social programs as we have,every single person working for the government produces ZERO,no products,no wealth.

What the governments of the world have done is hold producers as slaves to the rest of the world that does not produce!

Its not like the individual working for the government does nothing(some do,most dont) Most of them get up and put in an honest days work,but the problem is that at the end of the day there is nothing to show for that work that can be turned into a product,money,wealth.


I can agree with most of this, but as someone who makes his livelihood in law enforcement I have one issue. Government has a moral obligation to provide justice. From the streets, through the legal system and into detention. This isn't something you want privatized, ever. You want invested professionals providing your essential services, and if you are going to invest these people with the authority to act in the name of the state, they should be employees of the state.
~Mike
I would find the removal of CH to be akin to removal of oxygen from the atmosphere -morleysson
Government's first duty is to protect the people, not run their lives -Ronald Reagan
Image
User avatar
cakeanddottle
 
Posts: 3618
Joined: Mon Mar 14, 2011 11:20 am
Location: Red Oak, IA

Re: Austerity...can someone explain it to me?

Postby Slickheadhunter » Sun Jul 08, 2012 11:38 pm

We NEED public employees Mike, just not as many! And I certainly didn't single out law enforcement!

We need law enforcement, military and firefighters! And they should be paid well for the risk they put themselves in every day.
There are tens of thousands of jobs that private business can handle and would boost the economy, not to mention it would create competition for these jobs which always leads to a better end result.
Slickheadhunter
 
Posts: 818
Joined: Wed Apr 20, 2011 11:52 pm
Location: New Hampshire

Next

Return to Master Debators

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

cron