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T&P 2013 POY

Re: Pertinent Information from Original 2013 PoY Thread

Postby ruraldean » Thu Sep 06, 2012 3:11 pm

acaciavet wrote:
ruraldean wrote:
acaciavet wrote:Well Well Well My Ferndown just went down the sewer. I want to thank one clown for leading the cheerleading section.I am not leaving my beloved forum but I will not support any POY Projects . I am a Pipe smoker and Pipe collector not A politician so if you want to talk pipes look me up.If you want to cry dont bother me.


If you name the clown we can deal with him.



I just sent you A PM.


I got it. :D :D :D
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Re: Pertinent Information from Original 2013 PoY Thread

Postby drl » Thu Sep 06, 2012 3:33 pm

ruraldean wrote:It would upset me too. Where has anyone implied Mike a liar or a thief? Because I've looked and can't find anything.


Sigh, really? This thread and the other one are full of it. The whole "Mike won't send his private communications with Les to Eric" thing, to my mind, are full of the implication that Mike wasn't representing the facts. Why else would you want to read them for yourself? Please don't say "to stay in the loop" or something like that...

Here are some examples..

bob9039 wrote:How about you tell us in a precise way what you talked to Les about and his responses? Now the pipe seems in jeopardy and all the mods want to do is make sure everyone gets their pipes.


Implication: Mike hasn't told us everything. Pipe in jeopardy by Mike's secret dealings.

eric wrote:The staff and I have been watching it very closely and are concerned for the members getting their pipes.

For one thing I don't care for the way you have represented Les to the membership here. You make him sound like an emotionally unstable grump who'll throw a tantrum for the smallest reason.


Implication: We're concerned that Mike is doing something shady. Mike has painted a false picture of the carver. (By the way, I don't recall anything that made Les sound grumpy or emotionally unstable, but I could be wrong.)

RompinDonkey wrote:I have to admit that the secrecy behind the whole deal did put me off for a while - but that was the secrecy coming from Mike. Regarding price etc...

It now seems that there is a communication problem - Mike cannot contact Les. But Eric has quite easily contacted Les.


RompinDonkey wrote:.. albeit that he is apparently in hospital :o


RompinDonkey wrote:The problem is that one party says that the maker is in hospital and incommunicado, but the other party has communicated with him quite easily.


Implication: Mike lied about Les going into the hospital. Mike is lying about ability to contact Les.

eric wrote:Secrets that protect the carver (ie the price) are fine. Secrets that protect anyone else are unnecessary and won't be tolerated. Send me the details. You have my word I will protect Les's confidentiality.


Implication: Mike is not telling the truth to protect his own image.



viewtopic.php?f=8&t=6341
PapaBear wrote: what gives with the whole "shroud" of secrecy and no one, absolutely no one is "allowed" to talk to Les? Im not getting into a conspiracy but when a person gets that bent etc about something and starts accusing sabotage etc, That to me folks is a BIG RED FLAG that something doesnt "feel right"

I could understand the possibility of Les wanting to keep the price "secret", but not wanting people to contact him? Why?

If it were my money that I just handed over to someone, I would be asking this question. Could it be that the price was actually "different" and mike is taking a "little" for his time and effort" or using the difference to buy his own pipe with it? Again not an accusation but that could be a reason why no one again is "allowed" to talk to him.

(my bold)

Okay, don't really have to comment on implication here.
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Re: Pertinent Information from Original 2013 PoY Thread

Postby drl » Thu Sep 06, 2012 3:36 pm

So anyway, I didn't really want to get into a debate and I have no hard feelings, but I was really surprised (once again) at the turn this thread had taken. Bryan was absolutely right in his post about trust issues. All I'm saying is that if you feel like Mike is lying or hiding something, come out and say it and give your reasoning instead of tiptoeing around it.

If everyone else thinks I'm just reading way too much into this, so be it. I won't argue it anymore. But my take on all those things I read in this thread was absolutely what I said before.

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Re: Pertinent Information from Original 2013 PoY Thread

Postby eric » Thu Sep 06, 2012 3:36 pm

I notice a few of you are now referring to this project as something along the lines of "this great deal that Mike got for us." One of you has even pointed out that the resale value of the pipe would be higher if it weren't stamped as the Tamp &Puff PoY. To the moderators and I it always was, and remains the Tamp&Puff Pipe of the Year above all else. This essentially means it has my name on it. It is this forum's membership's project, not any individual person.

I want to make it abundantly clear the moderators and I have no agenda or hidden motives. We want the 26 people and as many others on the reserve list as possible to receive their pipe. No one has interfered with the negotiations or altered any agreements. And we have no plans to. We just want transparency. There are a lot of questions I have that would be cleared up if I knew exactly what was said and when.

Just to recap for the purposes of making sure everyone can see the big picture.

Tuesday, 21 August: Mike's first contact to me regarding the PoY. This PM included the following:
"I'm talking to him now about a straight Dublin and seeing what options we can offer members. Please give me the green light on this, a Ferndown T&P POY would be fantastic!"


I thought it was a little irregular that he had already been in coordination mode on things like the shape and options a week before he even went public to the forum about the PoY. But notice his use of the word "we." He wasn't selling the idea to me as something I would be excluded from - did not stipulate I couldn't talk to Les, etc. Had he I'd have declined. Instead I decided to let him run with it.

The same day I responded with:
I have no problem with it. You might want to shoot Bob a message and make sure he isn't in the middle of doing something again but so far as I know, no one has set anything in motion. Bob will also be able to give you any tips and lessons learned from last time maybe. I wasn't involved in the process.


Monday, 27 August: This is when he posted the thread announcing the project for the first time publicly. We learned yesterday (and this is a big surprise to me) that he hasn't been in contact with the carver since prior to beginning public discussion with the forum. This means the preferences and input from the membership has not been communicated to Les to this date.

Tuesday August 28: I was contacted by one of the moderators about a reported post in the PoY thread. Someone had raised the issue of the stamp. Mike reported it. The moderator chose to take no action because it was viewed as a legitimate question and not a personal attack. (its not like he'd called anyone here trolls or shit stirrers). This was the first I learned that our Pipe of the Year might possibly not be stamped as a Pipe of the Year.

There was a heavy amount of debate in the thread over the issue of whether the pipe should be stamped.

This is also the day Mike begins talking about shipping prices.

Wednesday Aug 29: Mike stops taking orders. Gives about two or three different reasons why.

Thursday Aug 30: Mike announces that the "deal" has not been finalized. Odd since earlier in the thread it sounded to me like all decisions had been made.

By now I was disappointed that this had been handled in such a way as to create so much drama. I didn't like how it was so suddenly closed off to the members. There had been complaints from Mike and others about my lack of support and involvement.

The moderators and I discussed it. We decided there should be a line of communication open between Les and I and that whatever had already been negotiated be left alone. We wanted to be careful not to interfere but wanted a better picture of what was going on.

Saturday Sep 1: I sent the following PM to Mike:

Could you please give me Les's contact info? If you are concerned you'd be breaking a confidence or something I can wait until you either ask his permission to pass it to me, or you can give him my email. Among other things I mainly wanted to thank him personally and directly for doing the project.


He responded the next morning and refused. He told me my lack of support created the problem. Suggested that if I were to contact Les it would screw over the people who signed up for the pipe, and then offered to "take the dilemma out of my hands" and host the pipe "on his own resource." I'm guessing that meant another web site.
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Re: Pertinent Information from Original 2013 PoY Thread

Postby acaciavet » Thu Sep 06, 2012 3:53 pm

Eric
The pipe deal is dead the label crowd one and the 26 of us that signed up last. Case closed I love T&P but I will not ever buy another T&P Poy, Tamper or anything else monogramed. Maybe 26 of us can get this done through other channels. I am very disappointed in a lot of people here right now. And one guy that I have absolutely no use for.
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Re: Pertinent Information from Original 2013 PoY Thread

Postby ruraldean » Thu Sep 06, 2012 4:00 pm

Chuck, I for one hope that in time you'll reconsider. I'm making a statement by the way, not seeking an argument. We joined T&P within a fortnight of each other and I'm sure we've not always agreed, but neither have we argued. If you love T&P as much as I do then I hope to see you on the 2014 list when the time comes ;) .
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Re: Pertinent Information from Original 2013 PoY Thread

Postby acaciavet » Thu Sep 06, 2012 4:10 pm

ruraldean wrote:Chuck, I for one hope that in time you'll reconsider. I'm making a statement by the way, not seeking an argument. We joined T&P within a fortnight of each other and I'm sure we've not always agreed, but neither have we argued. If you love T&P as much as I do then I hope to see you on the 2014 list when the time comes ;) .



When have we never agreed? :D It depends on whose name is on that 2014 list. :lol: You know who I am talking about. ;)
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Re: Pertinent Information from Original 2013 PoY Thread

Postby ruraldean » Thu Sep 06, 2012 4:17 pm

acaciavet wrote:
ruraldean wrote:Chuck, I for one hope that in time you'll reconsider. I'm making a statement by the way, not seeking an argument. We joined T&P within a fortnight of each other and I'm sure we've not always agreed, but neither have we argued. If you love T&P as much as I do then I hope to see you on the 2014 list when the time comes ;) .



When have we never agreed? :D It depends on whose name is on that 2014 list. :lol: You know who I am talking about. ;)


Man, we disagree ALL the time - I just don't tell you ;) .

The name might be on the list, but he won't be organising so you'll be OK.
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Re: Pertinent Information from Original 2013 PoY Thread

Postby SenatorXMG » Thu Sep 06, 2012 5:52 pm

This just gets better and better...

drl wrote:Dean, good on your for editing out that part of your post where you made a jab at Bryan by questioning his objectivity because of "loyalty" to Mike. I started this post to take issue with that, I'm glad you thought better of it and instead questioned his painter analogy, which IMO is quite applicable actually.


Wow, did you really question my integrity, Dean. That’s pretty cheap…especially for a mod that’s representing T&P. “Loyalty” to Mike? Before this whole fiasco, I never had communication with Mike. Since people obviously read the comment you made, instead of simply editing it out, perhaps an apology would have been more appropriate?

My loyalty was to getting my damn Ferndown POY and all I witnessed was a huge attempt to thwart it's efforts.


eric wrote:To the moderators and I it always was, and remains the Tamp&Puff Pipe of the Year above all else. This essentially means it has my name on it. It is this forum's membership's project, not any individual person.


ruraldean wrote:Well, he can hold my little dick too, because a POY without a stamp is a pipe.


Hmmm…seems like not ALL the mods considered this Ferndown pipe to be a T&P POY above all else. Wasn't this just going to be another pipe, Dean?

eric wrote:Monday, 27 August: This is when he posted the thread announcing the project for the first time publicly. We learned yesterday (and this is a big surprise to me) that he hasn't been in contact with the carver since prior to beginning public discussion with the forum. This means the preferences and input from the membership has not been communicated to Les to this date.


Wrong. Correspondence with Les continued after the announcement to this forum. And, the DAMN desire for a stamp was brought up in the correspondence!! Mike has always maintained that Les would look into the costs of the stamp and that's exactly what Les said he would do. So, enough with spreading falsehoods.

Just because you haven't seen the proof for yourself does not mean it's a lie.

acaciavet wrote:Well Well Well My Ferndown just went down the sewer. I want to thank one clown for leading the cheerleading section.I am not leaving my beloved forum but I will not support any POY Projects . I am a Pipe smoker and Pipe collector not A politician so if you want to talk pipes look me up.If you want to cry dont bother me.


Yep…my money was just refunded by Mike. Wow, certainly didn't expect a man that had all these deviant ideas and motives to refund my money so quickly. :roll: Thanks to ALL the mods for screwing this one up. You did a bang up job!!! But, I guess in the end you got what you wanted, huh? :roll:

Attempting to organize this POY should be viewed as a good deed...not one born out of malicious intent. Mistakes were made, probably...not intentionally, though. Perhaps it should have simply been seen as a lesson for future POYs.

For the most part, I've enjoyed this forum. I like the fact it's laid back and has a light-handed approach from the mods (not sure if that's still the case now, though). This whole ordeal puts a real bad taste in my mouth that no amount of latakia can cover up. I've seen a lot of crap occur on many of the pipe forums I belong to...but I've never seen something quite like this. No matter what you thought about the process, this was being done for the forum's membership. All I saw was a lot of whining, complaining and attempts to smear other members who showed support of the POY choice.
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Re: Pertinent Information from Original 2013 PoY Thread

Postby acaciavet » Thu Sep 06, 2012 5:59 pm

bryan maybe we can do this through a different chanell if we can get the other26 to follow that course.
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Re: Pertinent Information from Original 2013 PoY Thread

Postby SenatorXMG » Thu Sep 06, 2012 6:03 pm

acaciavet wrote:bryan maybe we can do this through a different chanell if we can get the other26 to follow that course.


I would certainly be open to that! If anyone OUTSIDE of T&P picks this up...count me in. I won't be in on any T&P-of-the-year items in the future.

If Les is reading this, please consider doing this POY for another forum. I'd gladly sign up for it!! :D
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Re: Pertinent Information from Original 2013 PoY Thread

Postby acaciavet » Thu Sep 06, 2012 6:10 pm

SenatorXMG wrote:
acaciavet wrote:bryan maybe we can do this through a different chanell if we can get the other26 to follow that course.


I would certainly be open to that! If anyone OUTSIDE of T&P picks this up...count me in. I won't be in on any T&P-of-the-year items in the future.

If Les is reading this, please consider doing this POY for another forum. I'd gladly sign up for it!! :D


I agree 100% I will also sign up because i already signed up. :D
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Re: Pertinent Information from Original 2013 PoY Thread

Postby drl » Thu Sep 06, 2012 6:22 pm

SenatorXMG wrote:Attempting to organize this POY should be viewed as a good deed...not one born out of malicious intent. Mistakes were made, probably...not intentionally, though. Perhaps it should have simply been seen as a lesson for future POYs.


Exactly, this was my take all along. I don't know why everyone had to keep harping on it instead of just letting it go and using the 2014 planning thread to make improvements for next time around, especially after it became clear that Mike was leaving the community and was only coming back here to deal with the PoY, clearly a commitment he took seriously. After that point, what good was going to come of trying to fight with him over how he had handled it - why keep pushing him? Instead of just the hurt feelings of people offended by Mike's approach, it ended up in an even bigger mess. :(
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Re: Pertinent Information from Original 2013 PoY Thread

Postby Hermit » Thu Sep 06, 2012 6:25 pm

cakeanddottle wrote:Eric and team have one agenda at this point, at least it's crystal clear to me. To discredit me and put themselves in the best possible light.

Really? That sounds kinda paranoid and delusional.

cakeanddottle wrote:Any pipe smokers who want to contact me or whose stomachs were turned by this affair and want to be exiles somewhere else can seek me out at my site where I will respond to any PMs. Hopefully they'll leave my account here intact for a few days so I can respond to anyone who PMs me here regarding this stillborn pipe, but this concludes my participation in this forum.

So now it's poach members, take yer ball and go home time?

Another grand exit.
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Re: Pertinent Information from Original 2013 PoY Thread

Postby ruraldean » Thu Sep 06, 2012 7:02 pm

SenatorXMG wrote:This just gets better and better...

drl wrote:Dean, good on your for editing out that part of your post where you made a jab at Bryan by questioning his objectivity because of "loyalty" to Mike. I started this post to take issue with that, I'm glad you thought better of it and instead questioned his painter analogy, which IMO is quite applicable actually.


Wow, did you really question my integrity, Dean. That’s pretty cheap…especially for a mod that’s representing T&P. “Loyalty” to Mike? Before this whole fiasco, I never had communication with Mike. Since people obviously read the comment you made, instead of simply editing it out, perhaps an apology would have been more appropriate?

My loyalty was to getting my damn Ferndown POY and all I witnessed was a huge attempt to thwart it's efforts.


eric wrote:To the moderators and I it always was, and remains the Tamp&Puff Pipe of the Year above all else. This essentially means it has my name on it. It is this forum's membership's project, not any individual person.


ruraldean wrote:Well, he can hold my little dick too, because a POY without a stamp is a pipe.


Hmmm…seems like not ALL the mods considered this Ferndown pipe to be a T&P POY above all else. Wasn't this just going to be another pipe, Dean?

eric wrote:Monday, 27 August: This is when he posted the thread announcing the project for the first time publicly. We learned yesterday (and this is a big surprise to me) that he hasn't been in contact with the carver since prior to beginning public discussion with the forum. This means the preferences and input from the membership has not been communicated to Les to this date.


Wrong. Correspondence with Les continued after the announcement to this forum. And, the DAMN desire for a stamp was brought up in the correspondence!! Mike has always maintained that Les would look into the costs of the stamp and that's exactly what Les said he would do. So, enough with spreading falsehoods.

Just because you haven't seen the proof for yourself does not mean it's a lie.

acaciavet wrote:Well Well Well My Ferndown just went down the sewer. I want to thank one clown for leading the cheerleading section.I am not leaving my beloved forum but I will not support any POY Projects . I am a Pipe smoker and Pipe collector not A politician so if you want to talk pipes look me up.If you want to cry dont bother me.


Yep…my money was just refunded by Mike. Wow, certainly didn't expect a man that had all these deviant ideas and motives to refund my money so quickly. :roll: Thanks to ALL the mods for screwing this one up. You did a bang up job!!! But, I guess in the end you got what you wanted, huh? :roll:

Attempting to organize this POY should be viewed as a good deed...not one born out of malicious intent. Mistakes were made, probably...not intentionally, though. Perhaps it should have simply been seen as a lesson for future POYs.

For the most part, I've enjoyed this forum. I like the fact it's laid back and has a light-handed approach from the mods (not sure if that's still the case now, though). This whole ordeal puts a real bad taste in my mouth that no amount of latakia can cover up. I've seen a lot of crap occur on many of the pipe forums I belong to...but I've never seen something quite like this. No matter what you thought about the process, this was being done for the forum's membership. All I saw was a lot of whining, complaining and attempts to smear other members who showed support of the POY choice.


No, you're not getting an apology. I deleted a statement within 2 minutes of making it questioning your impartiality. clearly I was right as you have an opinion that the mods are all bastards and Mike shits lavender.

And Eric knows my opinion about a "POY" not being marked as such. I've said elsewhere that there's not 100% agreement among the mods about the stamping issue, but to recognise that blasts a hole in your "mods vs the rest" conspiracy theory so I can understand why you'd gloss over it.

And lastly, my Christian name is clearly visible on my signature. It's not "Dean". Please get it right or don't use it.
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Re: Pertinent Information from Original 2013 PoY Thread

Postby SenatorXMG » Thu Sep 06, 2012 7:14 pm

ruraldean wrote:No, you're not getting an apology. I deleted a statement within 2 minutes of making it questioning your impartiality. clearly I was right as you have an opinion that the mods are all bastards and Mike shits lavender.


I don't think all the mods here are bastards..I think they (not all) have done things that hurt the project. Particularly, I don't think it was the wisest decision to air the dirty laundry publicly.

ruraldean wrote:And lastly, my Christian name is clearly visible on my signature. It's not "Dean". Please get it right or don't use it.


You look more like a Dean to me.
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Re: Pertinent Information from Original 2013 PoY Thread

Postby HowlinWolf » Thu Sep 06, 2012 7:32 pm

SenatorXMG wrote:Yep…my money was just refunded by Mike.



If the pipe wasn't going to be stamped T&P
and the commission was all set with Les
and the money paid to Mike

What was there to stop Mike from sending the $$$ to Les and getting you guys your pipes, instead of refunding?
Why isn't anyone asking that question?

If this has been covered, I missed it, sorry! There's been a lot to read and more subplots than in a Dickens novel.
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Re: Pertinent Information from Original 2013 PoY Thread

Postby Hermit » Thu Sep 06, 2012 8:11 pm

HowlinWolf wrote:
What was there to stop Mike from sending the $$$ to Les and getting you guys your pipes, instead of refunding?
Why isn't anyone asking that question?



Hurt feelings. :cry:
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Re: Pertinent Information from Original 2013 PoY Thread

Postby SenatorXMG » Thu Sep 06, 2012 8:34 pm

Hermit wrote:
HowlinWolf wrote:
What was there to stop Mike from sending the $$$ to Les and getting you guys your pipes, instead of refunding?
Why isn't anyone asking that question?



Hurt feelings. :cry:


No. Not everyone paid. Only those that paid got refunds.
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Re: Pertinent Information from Original 2013 PoY Thread

Postby HowlinWolf » Thu Sep 06, 2012 8:39 pm

SenatorXMG wrote:
Hermit wrote:
HowlinWolf wrote:
What was there to stop Mike from sending the $$$ to Les and getting you guys your pipes, instead of refunding?
Why isn't anyone asking that question?



Hurt feelings. :cry:


No. Not everyone paid. Only those that paid got refunds.



In that case, let me rephrase...

What was there to stop Mike from waiting for everyone to send him their money,
sending the $$$ to Les
and getting you guys your pipes?

Why isn't anyone asking that question?
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